May 17, 2004
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Another Dating Discussion Post
Sunday night after service a bunch of Highrockers went to MP3 (Mike Perrott’s Phantastic Pad). And an enormous dating discussion soon enveloped the whole group.
1) Hanracer and Songst want to run a “missions fundraiser” which will be an assisted one-time matchmaking service. I didn’t understand the whole system, but it involved a questionaire and selection of semi-anonymous partners based on their answers. All I remember is the last person gets screwed… er, shafted… er, suffers unfortunate consquence because they have no choice. But you buys your ticket and you takes your chances. They say it will lower the bar for dating pressure; I can see how that could work.
2) Then we had a spirited discussion of what defines a date. Marmite says that a date is when the guy explicitly uses the term, as in “Would you like to go on a date?” or he does something obvious and cheesy like bring flowers and chocolate. I say that it’s a date whenever it’s a 1-1 interaction and it’s ambiguous, meaning potential interest. Iit’s all dependent on context. If I ask marmite out for coffee, it’s not a date because our relationship is strongly defined as friendship. But if I ask a girl I hardly know, then it’s a date because she’s wondering, “Does he like me?” And I’m thinking, “I want to get to know her better” ’cause otherwise I wouldn’t have asked her out to coffee.
3) So finally I drove a few people home and almost came up with a systematic procedure. Imagine that — The Highrock Rules for Dating! It would go something like this:
- guy likes girl
- guy asks girl out to coffee
- if girl likes guy, she says yes or suggests other activities
- otherwise, girl says she’s busy
- if the guy is persistent after the busy answer, he asks again
- in no cases should the guy persist after 3 busy’s
- after 3 coffee outings, the guy would ask her out to dinner
- at this point, both of them should know if they want to begin a relationship
- dinner is the “Date”. It’s just a formality for the DTR. This should be successful. Because if the guy wasn’t interested, he shouldn’t have asked for it. And if the girl wasn’t interested, she shouldn’t have accepted.
- after the Date and DTR, they are now in a relationship.
But upon closer examination, these rules break down. The problem is that many girls won’t know if they like the guy enough to accept the coffee date until after they’ve interacted with him. And if he makes his interest known too soon, it can scare her off. So they have to be “friends” first, a demilitarized zone where they can evaluate each other with little risk. Then if there is mutual interest — both parties will know — she will be receptive to a coffee outing as described above. But until then, the guy has to play the friends card unless he pursues the rare adventurous woman who will date strangers. That explains why there is so little asking out at Highrock — the men instinctively know that they have to get the woman comfortable with them before asking them out for coffee. It’s like painting a new house: most of the work is in the preparation. 9 more analogies like that, and I’ll have another top-10 list.
Comments (33)
stop beating around the bush! come on, lay it out explicitly!
FREEEEEDOMMMMM!
2) That wasn’t the only thing I said! You have to admit though, some of the stuff I said was pretty wise. ;p Ambiguity is never a good thing. If I were to have coffee/lunch/dinner with someone that I hardly knew, I’d still see that as a “I’m just getting to know you/we’re hanging out” rather than ”a date”.
The lesson from last night, boys – KEEP THINGS LIGHT AND CASUAL. And don’t talk about it to everyone and their mothers until the relationship is certain.
Marmite’s comments were very enlightened/wise, and I wish that more people followed her school of thought. The problem, as it became apparent yesterday, is that the word *date* is ill-defined and different people have different ideas of what constitutes a date. Hence the confusion. Also, we need to find a way to have low-key, casual one-on-one encounters where we can get to know each other better to *explore the options* first.
isn’t part of the fun of dating talking to people about what they consider dating? one good rule from an old roommate — if HE doesn’t call it a date then it is NOT a date.
i LIKE that rule a lot b/c the guy should not have any expectations that something is a date if he’s too afraid to call it a date.
ahh… true that smartaleck, true that!
okay, no matchmaking service during the mission’s fundraiser. that’s just sketchy!
the weather’s started to get warmer, yet no new relationships. what’s up? the men need to step up their game…
men: this is the best time to start pursuing women. women start getting warm and fuzzy feelings when the weather gets nicer and the flowers start blooming. this is the time to attack!
Hmmm, I think I like smartaleck’s rule as well. It makes sense, but you just know there will be sketchy guys (and girls) out there that will take advantage of that rule as well. “Ooh, this isn’t a real date because I/he haven’t/hasn’t said it was yet. But I can still make my moves and get my ego stroked during this innocent ‘get together’.”
I hate the word “relationship”. It’s so damn abstract. Equations have relationships with each other. Why can’t we go back to calling it “being in love”. Even “liking someone” is better.
Instead of saying “we’re in a relationship” I would rather say “weird stuff is happening between us.”
cesare – please don’t tell me you’ve actually responded “weird stuff is happening between us” to someone asking, “are you guys dating?”.
I’m with cesare on this. I hate the term “significant other” as well. I’d rather use the term “beloved” or “snookums”. Ok, kidding on that last one.
COOL BRILLIANT and FANTASTIC weird stuff
psk, there’s a world outside of HR… =b
meanwhile, back to the subject, er “back” to the subject: (ie, Let’s Play Devil’s Advocate)
a) what if the girl actually is busy (as an example, at least 4 women didn’t make it to a bbq this past weekend bc of finals/papers/etc -> spring means less free time for some people) — but this is probly solved by the “delay suggestion,” that is, the girl suggests a later date or rain check
b) friend context set up or not, three coffee outings to know? I thought dating was about figuring out whether you want to pursue a relationship (of course, this way requires a lot of clear boundaries)… and becoming friends (entering the DMZ) isn’t building a relationship?
Based on the women’s responses, I have another 2×2 matrix sketched out (so to speak), but I’ll save it for tomorrow’s post.
DMZ…hahaha
Ah, the inevitable dating definitions discussion :-b. I had a discussion with a person at our church where she said, “I realized that the rest of the world doesn’t define a ‘date’ the same way our church does.” I acknowledge that but then wonder what the practical ramifications of that are, or are we just discussing terminology? Obviously there is a harmful impact if people outside start talking about X and Y going on a date or dating or being a relationship when they are not, but that’s moreso a matter of gossip?
Whether we call something a date or not, the girl or guy can get weirded out if they sense attraction that is not reciprocated. I suppose we should just say, “I am taking you to this $1000 restaurant 1on1 just to get to know you better but without explicit romantic interest yet” and everything will be clear
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I never say yes to those coffee dates, but they seem like a pretty harmless way to get to know someone. It’s not a real date, maybe call it a pre-date?
How many dinner dates before DTR? I’d use Jessica Simpson’s rule. She didn’t kiss Nick until Date #5. Five seems like a decent number… but I guess it all depends.
I wish the lines and and boundaries of the game were clearer. Maybe after all this you can write a handbook on Christian dating. Let me know when you’re done and I’ll ask you to send a copy to my current interest
what? are people at HR outsourcing to fulfill their dating needs?
i don’t believe in outsourcing from other churches. there’s way too many churches out there where people predominantly outsource which leaves a church community of people unwilling to take risks with each other, and thus fail to realize the benefits of taking those risks.
the reason why outsourcing is such an attractive option is because you don’t know those people from other churches nearly as well as you do the people in your own community. when you see the crap in the lives of people in your community, it goes against your ideas of your ideal mate, which might lead you to look for people who you don’t know as well.
that shouldn’t be how it is though. the best dating relationships are the ones rooted in honesty, openness and vulnerability–choosing to date people despite the crap and the sin in their lives because that’s how Jesus loves us.
anyways, i’ll stop my rant right here, but i am strongly opposed to outsourcing. there’s plenty of great single men and women at HR; but because people hold onto worldly values of what makes a “good” partner, there isn’t enough dating going on at HR.
these rules are just to hazy! clear the fog!
wow, was dating always this complicated?
I’m giving two props to Peterskim’s last comment!
Sorry Pastor Dave, but you saw what Ryan did to my Xanga! You can’t expect me to marry someone who’d do that!
I don’t understand peterskim’s last comment. What “worldly values” do people look for that are absent in Highrockers?
first of all, these are all conventions. nothing is defined until both people say so. i think that’s in general a good rule. so, for instance, if the guy says they’re boyfriend and girlfriend and the girl does not, it’s not a relationship.
the whole dating thing is a complex process. i don’t know if there are any rules, per se, because there’s lots of uncertainty on both sides most of the time. basically, the only thing one can rely on is instinct, experience and the same from one’s friends.
but hey, the whole asking thing requires some courage on both sides, so don’t bust people’s chops if they’re not ready.
Hmm…I’ll second clieu’s request, should you ever feel the urge to write up something. haha…
I guess it’s a toss-up though – the not-knowing-for-sure makes life more interesting, but having laid-out rules for understanding what constitutes a date or not would make it a little less confusing… =P
Every time I try using “dating rules” to determine if someone else is interested I usually arrive at the wrong conclusion or confused. I think the best thing is just to really listen. It doesn’t matter what they say, but how they say it. Someone can say no and you realize they are interested etc. Also sometimes I actually like to just hang out with my friends and especially talk to friends one on one because that is the best way to get to know them even when there is no attraction there. Finally, dialated pupils are the key. Pupils dialate when people like what they are looking at…also when it is really dark, but you are going to have to use good judgement
I think there’s a more influential factor in the outsourcing thing than worldly values. I think there’s a lot more at risk than just your personal friendship with Person X. You risk your relationships with X’s friends, making fellowship more awkward; you risk gossip, ridicule, and other methods of pride-stomping amongst a close peer group; and perhaps most lethal of all, just the perception/fear/paranoia of those things happening – all can deaden any hopeful wisp of interest.
Outsourcing then seems a far more attractive, less risky scenario. Man how does anyone at the same church get married these days?
I agree with Jen — it’s not that the reward is lower; it’s rather that the risk is higher.
S__Man, I like your comments! Anyway. I dunno if you’ll come back to read this peter (probly will), but uh… yeah. I agree with you wholeheartedly about the crap and sin, and not holding silly ideal mate values. I couldn’t be more thankful for the openness and honesty that I’ve found. I guess I was talking more about me than suggesting that HR “outsource.” I also agee that there are plenty of great men and women at highrock, and that there isn’t enough dating, whatever the definition may be.
Interesting discussion! Not that anyone will read my comment (maybe Ed should repost or refresh the timestamp so the post goes back up), but I agree with Ed here:
“I don’t understand peterskim’s last comment. What “worldly values” do people look for that are absent in Highrockers?
I think Highrock girls have plenty of worldly characteristics. They are a good looking bunch, many of them have accomplished careers, they’re both intelligent and sensitive, etc. I know a lot of non-Christian guys who would feel like they’ve entered heaven if they met some of the HR girls :-b.
Yeah, whenever I go to random nonchristian parties and meet the single women there, I’m usually like… “EWWWWWW!”
i’m disappointed that you didn’t draw a state/flow diagram in powerpoint, ed. no eProps for you!