July 18, 2004
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A New Theology of Dating: I am not just your “brother.”
I’ve met a number of Christian men and women whose dating theology is:
God is idealistic about love, and we should be too.
These Christians typically come from conservative churches where men and women are not friends (and sometimes prohibited from interacting). They read Josh Harris and Elisabeth Elliot, not realizing that those books are at best aimed for teenagers.
The problem with any strict idealism is that it doesn’t account for messy reality. In the case of dating, idealism means there are two categories of male-female relationships:
A: brother and sister (strictly platonic)
B: on the path to holy matrimony
This system represses girls. They are taught not to flirt. Because that would just cause guys in camp A to stumble, and there’s no need to flirt to attract the type-B guy. When he knows, he’ll know. And girls have to turn down dates with any guys who don’t fit her idea of who she’ll marry.
This system emasculates guys. Since girls don’t flirt with them, guys get no positive encouragement about their own sexual desirability. And since asking out is such a serious matter (a date means you’re on path B and better think about how many kids you want), guys can’t ask out girls until they are sure enough. And girls can’t say yes until they’re sure enough.
Result: low self-esteem, very few couples, sparse or absent male-female friendships, and anemic spiritual growth in the area of handling romantic relationships.
It’s hard for me to believe this is what God intended for men and women.
It’s true that God is idealistic. But he doesn’t express that idealism by neatly categorizing into A and B. Instead, he expresses it through a real Christ who came to live and die among us, despite our messiness, our smells, our sins. He had messy relationships too, although any romantic ones weren’t documented.
Here is my plea. Men and women should be friends, and sometimes more, and sometimes less. People can’t be neatly categorized — why should relationships? Messiness is a part of life. Certainly at various points, things need to be clarified and commitments made. But before then, I’m in favor of flirting and affirming each others’ desirability. And having ambiguous relationships that evolve and leave room for hope, faith, grace, open communication, mistakes, and forgiveness.
Unfortunately, many Christians will choose to stay in their idealistic fairy-tale land. So the princess lies asleep in the guarded castle, waiting for her prince to come set her free. And occasionally this happens, because the men who live in fairy-tale land don their armor (the breastplate of righteousness, etc…) and sally forth. Some of these men make it, but most are eaten by the dragon.
Comments (20)
Wow, you’ve articulated so much of what I think about boy-girl relationships in the last few fellowships I’ve been in…. I can’t believe we actually agree on something! =P
indeed ed i think you’re onto something here.
good post ed!
i’ve always looked on falling in love from a more optimistic perspective. i think it sweeps over you and takes possession and you’ll start doing things that are weird and embarrassing and you’ll have little control over it. anyway, that’s been my experience, both on the receiving and initiating end. so my philosophy is go with the flow and just keep showing up where the tornado can come and suck you up.
Preach on brother…but I still want to try to be the knight
hahhaha i like the ending.
and i agree.
Yes, relationships do not fit neatly into category A and B, but is flirting a solution for the problem? Casual and thoughtless flirting might make things mucky and confusing, rather than introduce new and varied categories of relationships. I’d say, more thoughful/intentional dating and deeper friendships that defy categories. No need to give permission for more flirting; we have enough going on.
Great post. There’s also the Madonna/Whore complex. Most guys either think a girl is an untouchable saint or a tramp. They can’t see that a woman is multi-faceted.
Meanwhile, I think it’s bold of Christians to create a “bible” on dating when it’s not mentioned in the Bible. There are so many ideals already mentioned in the Bible that those Christians have difficulty upholding – and now they have an opinion on dating, too?
I’m guessing, if you raise your kids in the best way, they will learn that you cannot define another person or relationships in such limited ways. At least, I’d like to date a guy that thinks so.
If you’re a parent that cannot think for yourself and need to rely on what a group of other people tell you is right, then what kind of example are you teaching your own child?
the akward tension, the difficulties between men and women, the sexual question-mark, this whole shebang is, i find,
>>mostly the result of calling each other ‘brother’ and ‘sister’ without ever really believing it. generally, it’s lip service fronting a false heart.<<
who reading this has ever really given “A” a shot? have ever really had this brother-sister revelation? have ever even asked for it??? …if you’ve agreed with changed’s post and have not, then i would ask you questions about the statements above. do you really believe he is your brother? do you really believe she is your sister? or are you just paying that concept lip-service?
…and i’ve never read either author or anyone even remotely similar…
Dang, you’ve got some hot ideas. This is the first time I’ve bumped into your xanga, but very beautiful ideas brother!
Hi changed, I think you’re onto something, but you havent quite hit the nail on the head yet.
You see, I know Christian women and men who do not necessarily subscribe to your (a) or (b), i.e., they do “flirt” and “date” BUT still remain single and unwilling to commit towards marriage.
I do not think that this is because they, “God is idealistic about love, therefore we should be too.” Quite the contrary, they probably are more influenced by the world’s perception of love, romance and relationships than they are willing to admit or realise, and therein is the nub of the issue.
It’s not so much about how much you’re willing to “flirt” or “date”. It’s your perception of what a “worthy” partner ought to be.
I know a lot of guys who will tell me, “Oh yea, there are a lot of really wonderful godly Christian women in church…but I”m just not attracted to any of them. I don’t feel anything for them…”
Since when was love based on feeling? Is God’s love based on feeling?
And women seem to be equally guilty of allowing worldly things to get in the way. For example, most women want a man who is a good conversationalist, sensitive, witty, more intelligent than they are etc., These are all the qualities we see in men in Hollywood movies… the kind of men that sweep a girl off her feet. But do they really exist in reality? And even if they did, should that be what we are looking for?
So, both sides seem to continue along parallel tracks, each willing to “settle for less”. But, what defines “less” needs to be analysed and debunked. Even the most perfect man will forget to put the toilet seat down and will cut the cheese and pick his nose in public ever so often. Likewise, even the most beautiful babe will tire a guy out with her insecurities and idiosyncracies after a while.
My basic point is that we are all sinners. And the lack of acceptance of that is resulting in a lot of unnecessary singleness…
I will agree with changed on one point though. Sometimes, women are so taken in by all the books on the purity and beauty of a Christian marriage that they inevitably do end up raising their standards so high that no guy could ever fulfill them.
In all honesty, all guys want to do is play computer games. Men need to be encouraged towards godliness too. There is no way you’ll marry a saint and we should not be looking for another Jesus to marry. It’s impossible.
Like my husband & I wrote in our marriage vows, we are two sinners saved by grace. We do not come to this marriage, presuming to depend on our own strength, but wholly on the strength of God. Amen.
I read Elisabeth Elliot et al in college and I agree that there can be some flawed thinking/behaviors extrapolated by young, eager Christians. But one principle that has stuck with me, and I THINK I’m ascribing it to the right author, is that God’s greatest desire is our holiness, not our happiness.
It is NOT that he wants us to be UNhappy, but that our sanctification not be sacrificed for love, attention, gratification, or affirmation – “idealistic” or not.
I agree with ruthwan that many women overidealize their standards, but sadly I think the opposite extreme is just as often true. I know far too many of my sisters who have married outside the faith or who have fallen away after getting involved with someone – even another believer – who makes them feel happy, needed, or fulfilled. I hear it often – “I’m so much happier, and I KNOW God would want me to be happy, right?”
You state, “I’m in favor of flirting and affirming each others’ desirability” But how much flirting is needed for someone to feel affirmed – and doesn’t that vary by person? How would the flirter know when the flirtee has had enough? When does harmless flirting become fraud? What happens when your friend gets married - whose feelings get hurt, the new spouse or the old friend? Most of all, who gets to decide, and by what standard?
I know these thoughts will put me squarely in the conservative camp you are frustrated with. (That and the fact that I give away E. Elliott books as gifts…sorry!) I appreciate your candor, and the fact that Christian dating is indeed problematic, but I don’t agree with your solution.
I DO think you should’ve taken me up on my offer of setting you up when you were out here visiting. None of my friends are dragons, and arranged marriages are discussed in much more detail than dating is in the Bible.
Good post. As with most things, few people fall into the extreme idealistic side; e.g. in our recent dating talk, chantasticdude scoffed at the idea that God is just going to plop someone down at our feet. However, most of us have carry some unhealthy notions on either side — too passive, or too indiscriminant… I used to joke about people losing “the right to procreate” in a community after getting a bad reputation, or conversely about how “natural selection naturally weeds out” those who are incredibly passive/idealistic.
Fortunately, I haven’t met many people who are Elizabeth Elliot – idealistic. Most of us just find some merit in her approach because she has some good things to say but don’t espouse it unequivocally. If someone were so idealistic, then I wouldn’t want to date them anyway because they’d probably have unreasonable expectations in a relationship too.
Another consideration is that there are both ideological and practical factors that influence how a person behaves. One is idealistic standards (c.f. ruthwan’s comment). Another is that for passive guys, maybe we didn’t Kiss Dating Goodbye but instead are just stifled by the environment because we’re not in a supportive community. This goes back to one of my earlier blogs about how I feel the root of the issue is that our community just does not do enough to foster an envronment that encourages healthy dating.
So… this is what you think about at 4:17 in the morning?!?!?!
Elizabeth Elliot once came to speak at a fireside chat when I was in college (I have pictures). She pissed everyone off because she said girls shouldn’t wear jeans. Ha ha… I don’t know why I think that’s funny.
Hey Ed… I agree with your comments in general, but I had an interesting thought: How about post-marriage fidelity? If all our spouses had ambiguous relationships with people of the opposite sex, that would make me nervous. =b
Hey, you should check out my friend Ji’s post.
Though I do agree that some Christian men & women do abuse this “idealistic” way toward relationships, I think you may have unjustly written off those who desire to approach relationships that do go down this path. As there will be those who want to use this line of thinking because they honestly fear having a relationship in general, don’t discount those who do and have relationships that may look too “puritan” for many of us who have grown up in this western culture.
In regards to ”flirting” & its apparent importance in relationships, would you agree that men & women have used this to caused either side to stumble and mess up real bad?
I believe your conclusion that flirting is a necessary need to help a man realize his manhood is flawed and dangerous actually. Are not men suppose to define their manhood on their Creator, not on another creation? Was Adam less of a man before God created Eve? Was the creation of Eve meant to give Adam his manhood?
As logical in some ways your arguments may sound, they are still coming from the perspective of a 21st century worldview and mindset. I tend to look at relationships, gender, issues that deal with men and women through the lense of how Jesus dealt with both men and women, and what happened in the garden when Adam & Woman (Eve) were created. It does run against the grind to what we are used to in this western society that we live in.
Let me offer the testimony of a friend of mine, who recently shared with her small group how she had been earnestly praying for a husband for the past two years, asking for specific signs to confirm that he would be the one God intended for her to marry. During this time, many guys came along and expressed interest in her, even Christian guys, but she never got the sense that God was leading her to any of these men, so she always declined. She shared that she didn’t want to waste her time and energy on fruitless pursuits. God finally answered her prayer recently and has brought a youth pastor into her life who is exactly what she prayed for. Specific words that he said, various aspects of his character, his life, his ministry, all line up with her prayers. And wouldn’t you know it, he has said the same thing about her – “I know now clear as day that you are the one that I’ve been praying for.”
My friend prayed with all her heart every day for this for two years, and God revealed His glory through answering her prayers. I challenge the Christian community to ask yourself if you’re willing to make such a commitment, to wait on God’s timing and to give Him an opportunity to make Himself known. That we need to test for ourselves compatibility with other people within the confines of a dating relationship is not a Biblical perspective (in fact it sounds familiar to the promise the serpent made to Eve?) – did God not make knit together our innermost being and does He not know what we need and what we desire before we even approach Him? God surely knows the one that would fulfill us like no other. Please, don’t run after what does not last, but rather take your singleness as a blessing and serve God wholeheartedly.
In the meantime, how are we men of faith to interact with our sisters? What does the Bible say about this? Let’s see…
1 Timothy 5:1-2 “Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.”
Press on.
i actually think that women do plenty of encouraging when she likes a guy. wait, is it just me? i should revise my blog on chrisitan dating…
props. *snap snap*